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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:35 pm
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Location: England, UK
I noticed this evening that diplomacy is working, and it was fun trying to remember how to play it from those times years ago when I used to enjoy it.

I remember that Presence is increased by grinding out Civic diplomacy parleys, but noticed I wasn't getting any boost to it at all. It could be that the emulator has not implemented that yet (if so, that's fine). However, my character is still on the Isle of Dawn and it could also be that it was never possible to gain presence when still there. I just cannot remember now.

Anyone know?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:39 am 
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I notice noone was able to answer this.

However, I have since been elsewhere in New Telon, and it appears presence cannot be raised at all (anywhere) at the moment, so the point about IoD appears to be moot.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:02 pm 
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I believe you could gain presence in live, I'd have to check my logs. But presence from parleys was extremely rare. But I see no reason why you wouldn't get it on IOD in live.

I don't believe we have it implemented yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Jakkal wrote:
I believe you could gain presence in live, I'd have to check my logs. But presence from parleys was extremely rare.

I was a master diplomat on live, and I used to grind presence, so at that time I knew a lot about it, just .. it was many years ago and I just can't remember the formula for how the rate of gain was worked out. It was not rare however - it was something like one point of presence per 7 or 8 successful parleys, but it was based on something else as well, and I have just forgot the details. Hmm, perhaps it is documented online somewhere, the old vgtact website had loads of info on this and many other things VGSOH related, maybe it is cached somewhere.

Jakkal wrote:
But I see no reason why you wouldn't get it on IOD in live.

That part is the part I simply cannot remember at all.

Jakkal wrote:
I don't believe we have it implemented yet.


And that is what I needed to know here (though I had guessed by this point). Thanks for replying. :)
~Sinvarin.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Found it online, after quite a bit of searching. Came across a few references actually, and the summary is, that presence is raised by 1 point every 5-12 successful parleys in the respective station. The best summary I've found is this:

Quote:
Increasing Diplomatic Presence

Every time you engage in a successful Civic Diplomacy Parley you have a chance to increase your Diplomatic Presence with the NPCs of the particular Station that you are Parleying.

The rate at which this happens depends on how many points the NPC managed to score during the Parley. If you completely prevent the NPC from scoring any points at all, then you will gain a point of Diplomatic Presence for every 5th successful Parley. In the worst case (where the NPC scores heavily and you only just win), you should gain a point of Diplomatic Presence for every 12 successful Parleys.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:23 pm
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Nice, thanks for finding that! Our goal is to make New Telon as close to live as possible, so these tidbits of info are tremendously helpful for us.

Thanks!

Moldew


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:37 am 
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I'm going to be honest and say that I don't believe that's the case. It doesn't make sense to me that the game would be tracking every 5th or 12th parley. I felt like it was entirely random.

Just to put it out there, I had at least 12 level 50 diplomats, and did a ton of grinding, usually on the same parley type just to hit 45 for POTA. I also did the civic buff pushing for my guild's raid nights, which was 3 nights a week.

Getting presence was probably easier at the early levels, but I believe it was still rare. We used to joke about one of our guildies who did so many lever pushes that he could do some of the 2000 presence parleys without any gear on.

Here's a note from my logs just to put a point to this:

Quote:
[19:54:22] [19:54:22] You have won the parley!
[19:54:22] [19:54:22] You gain 1013411 (Rest Bonus: 262736) diplomacy experience!
[19:54:22] [19:54:22] Your Outsider Presence has increased to 14!
[19:54:22] [19:54:22] You may now move items rewarded by your parley into your inventory.
[19:54:23] [19:54:23] You have looted <item=1027969:-913245692::0:0:1:0:0:>Hearsay about Trends</link>.


If you look up that item in VG now, that's unequalled hearsay. That is the level 40+ (or 45?) diplo drop, so my toon was at least level 40-45ish when I did that parley. And their outsider presence was /only/ 14. That was me pushing in Afrit for diplo buffs, so again, it was high level.

Here's another example, same log:
Quote:
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You have won the parley!
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You gain 1180739 (Rest Bonus: 306117) diplomacy experience!
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] Your Noble Presence has increased to 140!
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You may now move items rewarded by your parley into your inventory.
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You have increased Azuril Raj Afrit by 7. It is now 146.
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You have decreased Spirit Aflame by 2. It is now 0.
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You have decreased Supernatural Laws by 2. It is now 158.
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You have decreased Bane of the Var by 2. It is now 0.
[20:01:24] [20:01:24] You have decreased Shield of Law by 2. It is now 94.


Noble is only 140? According to the quote about 5 or 12 parleys, that's between 700 and 1600 parleys. And that's nothing compared to the grinding I did, and most of my leveling was in Leth Nurae doing Noble parleys, which explains why it's so high compared to my Outsider, but it doesn't match the above.

I do not believe one got presence as quickly as that source seems to think one does. I feel like that's speculation.

Though to be true, I wouldn't mind if it did work that way.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:04 am 
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Presence was one of the things I think Sigil/SoE never talked about, so no one knows for sure how it increased. People tend to see patterns where they don't exist easily, so if one person did a dozen or two parleys and noticed it seemed to increase after the NPC didn't get any points, they think that's the pattern. Then they tell someone and that person repeats it as fact, and it spreads.

Whether it was or not, who knows. Unless we can find information directly from Sigil/SoE talking about the system, it's all speculation. The best we can do is get logs of someone doing tons of diplo and look at the overall patterns and make an educated guess. Even with that though, there's other variables we may not know, such as exactly how the parley went for that player.

And even with all that, there's still the random element. Most things in game have at least some kind of random number behind it, so one log could have a run of good rolls, and another log have bad rolls. Honestly we'd need logs of thousands of parleys, along with knowledge of how each one went for the player, to even try and determine the actual pattern.

Now, as for how it'll be set up in the Emulator, we haven't gotten to that point yet. We could potentially set it up so you're more likely to get increases if the NPC gets few/no points during the parley. It would make some sense that way too, the better you do the more they approve of you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:19 pm 
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OncaLupe wrote:
Unless we can find information directly from Sigil/SoE talking about the system, it's all speculation.


On this or any other subject, this is not an fair or reasonable statement. Actual testimony from knowledgeable former players is not the same as speculation by people who have and never had any idea. Furthermore, details on wikis contributed to by the player community based is certainly not merely "speculation". It might not all be perfect, but if the community is active and knowledgeable (as the VGTact community certainly was), they were valueable and generally accurate resources.

Of course, a direct formula released from Sigil is better! But the whole emulator process would get nowhere if it was only allowed to be based on statements Sigil made and not on anything else.

OncaLupe wrote:
And even with all that, there's still the random element.


My feedback is honest. There was no random element at all, I KNOW this for an absolute fact from the thousands of parleys I spent just for the precise purpose of grinding presence. I don't believe I ever knew the formula, and I know that I did not remember the exact number of parleys each point took (though the range of between 5 and 12 depending on how well the parley was won did trigger a memory once I read it). However, I know when I spent hours on end parleying for Outsider presence in Afrit (for example), that if I could get one point after 7 parleys, I would get exactly 200 points from 1400 parleys, as long as I won every one the same way.

But this is the problem with memories, and it was many years ago now, we can forget some details. Perhaps there was an NPC level vs your level component to it too (that I knew at the time but cannot remember now). Honestly, I am uncertain. I do not believe I have any logs on my old PC (I'm not sure I had logging switched on anyway, I will have a check if I ever power it up).

My advice is this: keep searching old wikis, cached sites, etc, for information. There were some real diplo fanatics back then, and they knew all this stuff.

YMMV.


Last edited by Feanturi on Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Jakkal wrote:
That is the level 40+ (or 45?) diplo drop, so my toon was at least level 40-45ish when I did that parley. And their outsider presence was /only/ 14. That was me pushing in Afrit for diplo buffs, so again, it was high level.


This is not as surprising as you think. There were very few NPCs in the Outsider station, and at that time Afrit was the only one of those I could get to. I was a master diplomat but a very low level adventurer, and I had no interest in raiding. I was doing diplomacy for fun! Afrit was pretty dangerous, because the mobs could easily kill me, so I had to avoid them. Furthermore, since I was only there to grind presence, so I had no interest in the direction of the levers or which buffs I was putting up, and sometimes raid guilds would turn up and were surprised at which buffs were up *chuckle*.

Most were fine with me of course, when I offered to help move the levers in whatever the direction they needed once they were gathering in zone, as most players are pretty decent. But I do recall one guild being real asses about it - one guild leader basically told me they "owned" the zone and others had no right to be there (even when they were not raiding!). Arrogance and entitlement was alive and well there, and when one of their members decided training the low level adventurer with mobs was "fun", I messaged a GM, who was very helpful and sorted it out. *chuckle*

Anyway, story aside, having a low Outsider presence even at high diplomat level was normal, unless you actively chose to grind it specifically, as I did.


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